Feedback: Armor Penetration and Riposte AKs

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Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2020 3:56 pm

Feedback: Armor Penetration and Riposte AKs

Post by gulain »

I figured I would kick off the feedback/discussion on the new Warrior AKs: Armor Penetration and Riposte after having done some testing this afternoon courtesy of Sharfor helping me get switched over. These are just my takes on it after playing with it in a few zones.

Armor Penetration:
At first I wasn't too enthusiastic about this one because the phrasing of the ability implied that the damage ignore was only on auto-attacks. In practice I found that it was still affecting my Bard stab on Grayven, which made it feel noticeably more "WOW!" for me. I have a feeling that this wasn't intended, but it's the one thing about it now that actually feels impactful.

The good:
* Proc rate seems reasonable considering i had near min eles (~100/125) while using. I'd see it once every few rounds almost like a weapon proc. Higher eles are reported to help scale it well with Valar reporting near 20% rate @ max eles.
* Physical finishers when getting the proc can feel really strong (this might be a bug, but it's the one thing that makes it stand out atm).

The bad:
* The damage value on it is significantly worse than what WM3 provides if you compare them apples to apples. WM3 was providing approximately 10 damage per hit at max value, with on average around 4.5 to 6 apr for most warrior combos. This came out to 60 a hit.... to beat that with the benefit of Armor Pen I think you need somewhere around 200 player damage for that single hit (my math is fuzzy here)?
* It's hard to notice when it goes off
* It's yet another passive ability again for warriors, they just don't feel dynamic.
* If not intended to ramp finishers and only kill, it's pretty much beneficial only for pve and above wimpy pvp (the least critical timing of pvp). It's generally accepted that once players hit wimpy, KILL is rather ineffective for finishing combat no matter how much damage reduction you ignore. The fact is, for an AP proc on Kill to even make it viable to chase over even a weak finisher like bard stab, you'd have to be fighting someone with over 94% damage reduction on your attacks (again, math is fuzzy but it's the equiv of trying to match a 6x finisher with a 1x attack that ignores 50% reducs).
* Provides literally 0 benefit against mobs/players that have 0 reducs. One of the only offensive skills i can think of that gets WORSE when you remove someone's reducs.

This one, when reading the news, had me super excited. The ability sounded like it'd be useful in all aspects of play from pve to pvp, giving the warriors out there a way to really shine the stronger their opponent was. While it is yet another passive, it's one that sounded like it had a pretty cool identity for a warrior that would really set them apart. The actual gameplay, however, was a complete letdown.

The good:
* In appearances it's usable in almost all aspects of the game. Again it's seemingly focused around melee auto attacks and not finshers, but those are much more applicable to you the player through all stages of the game.
* Procs off attacks against you, the harder and more often a player hits the more effective it can be.

The bad:
* It only procs on attacks that actually HIT you.
* The damage is REFLECTED and not an actual attack. It doesn't synergize or scale off of any of your gear other than eles. Looks to be 1.25x returned at max eles
* Proc rate seems really low considering missed attacks don't do anything. Estimated 10-20% without large testing set. Need more testing but for context against Bone Naga:
* 25 attacks by Bone Naga made. 7 Hit me. 0 procced riposte.
* Again, it's a passive. Warrior still creates no player agency or dynamic play considering their only real active skill of significant note is bash and that's a double-edged sword.
* Counter-intuitive to a "defensive" skill from a lore/roleplay perspective. It's most effective with less % reducs and non-existant armor to maximize how much damage is reflected.

So my thoughts on it:

AP: Review either the proc rate or the % ignore component. I think it's still limited in PVP but would be a boon for many warriors in PVE but the scaling is just too weak. Leave in the finisher boosting component but maybe limit the effectiveness of that somehow if you increase the rest. For pvp utility consider having it proc cripple or a -dex debuff on the target as well.

Riposte: I can't state it enough, this NEEDS to cause an actual weapon attack with chance for any and all related procs. It really should also proc on any attack made against you (non-spell) and finishers including stab/charge/etc.. Consider if it does proc on everything lowering the proc rate to keep it around 20% at max with max eles. Scaling should be on the % chance and shouldn't relate to a damage reflect value.

Barring doing that if it's mechanically difficult to trigger only a single weapon attack, perhaps it can still be made to occur regardless of hit or miss but include some other type of proc'd benefit for the warrior.... not quite sure what to suggest on that yet.

That's just my thoughts for now, i might add more after further testing later.


Gulain / Grayven / Raatch / etc.

Posts: 2
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2020 3:56 pm

Re: Feedback: Armor Penetration and Riposte AKs

Post by gulain »


I ran a counter on Riposte to get more accurate details on the counts. It may not be 100% accurate on the total hits that landed in the event that i missed any of the variations on wordings of being hit. The counter ran both solo in higher end zones that can hit ac occasionally and in groups where mobs don't have the best accuracy.:

Total attacks against me: 1812
Hits landed: 379
Misses: 1433
Ripostes: 50

I'm no statistician so I'll keep it fairly simple with the understanding that it's not perfectly accurate. If we look at the %s:

Hits/Ripostes: ~13.19%
Attacks/Ripostes: ~2.76%

Bear in mind, this is all at max elements possible. If we look at the 1.25x damage return value @ 200 pearth w/ 13.19% proc rate we get an equivalent of ~16.5% damage return against auto-attacks only. This is worse than any other damage reflect by a large margin, although the fact that it's not dispellable is somewhat of a point in it's favor. Even if we adjust the proc rate to 20% to account for a large deviation from the standard in my counting, that still only gets us to an equivalent ~25% damage return against only some types of damage, still under performing against nearly all other reflects.

The total rate of occurrence against overall hits just emphasizes how nearly unnoticeable this is in the aggregate against mobs or players. When comparing this to other notable AKs whose purpose is to increase damage as opposed to reflect damage, we see it performing even worse. Lightning bow arguably provides more to damage output in melee rounds alone than riposte does, and all it provides at the moment is a small apr boost.

Further musings:

I put some more thought into what Riposte means, and looked to Merriam Webster dictionary to confirm my understanding of the origin of the word:
Definition of riposte

1 : a fencer's quick return thrust following a parry

I think perhaps this is what is jarring to me somewhat.... ironically in real life a riposte occurs following a fencer skillfully parrying or the opponent even straight missing. The way it functionally works in AOC, and i think there might be coding limitations going on here, is the complete opposite of what a riposte really is.

My initial statements on how it should really be addressed still stand I think, both because of how much more synergistic it would be and how true to the intent of the word origin it is.

Thanks for the consideration and review.

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Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:23 pm

Re: Feedback: Armor Penetration and Riposte AKs

Post by Vangil »

Been thinking about the 'Riposte' AK myself, thinking instead of the CoD/WOS/VS thing, maybe a % per round, with a max of 3 per 1/2 atks received to beat back on the person attacking. Making it somewhat an apr booster, like the caster bits of MH, NF, CI, etc. Would definitely be a bit more dynamic, though uncertain as to implementation.

Hope your day rocks,